S1 E27 Radical Learning Design
Episode Audio
Juliana Stancampiano shares what she’s been learning about Radical Learning Design.
Connect with Juliana on LinkedIn.
Transcript:
The following transcript was auto-generated and may contain typos or spelling errors.
Amy Petricek
Welcome to the share with you learned Podcast. I'm Amy Petricek, a learning enthusiast and the host of the show, the share what you learn podcast is designed for learning professionals to share something they're learning in the field of instructional design. Today, I'm talking to Giuliana Stan camp piano, about radical learning design. Juliana, I'm so grateful to have you here today, would you be so kind as to introduce yourself to my listeners,
Juliana Stancampiano
of course, and thank you so much for having me today. My name is you just said Giuliana, and I've been in and around learning for over 15 years, about 17 Actually, which kind of makes me sad. But um, you know, I have a lot of passion and, you know, started accidentally, like a lot of us and ended up in a role where they started asking me to do you know, the development of the people and the leaders and the managers and the individuals and just kind of went from there. And so stumbled across it, you know, just as I was navigating my career, and I was in Europe at the time. So that was a lot of fun. I got to do it across a lot of different cultures and people and languages, and then ended up carrying that forward into the US when I wanted to come home and started a business around it in 2008. And have been in it and doing it and around it since then.
Amy Petricek
Let's give a little plug for your business. What's your business name? Tell us a little bit about it.
Juliana Stancampiano
Yeah, it's oxygen. And, and as I said, it's been around since about 2008, we kind of do three main areas we do the learning, development and design. We do learning, consulting. And then most recently, we've added in a creative studio. And so we do a lot around the change management, narrative branding work of learning, which I think is becoming more and more important for organizations today to capture the eyes and ears of their people.
Amy Petricek
I agree, I think that's very important beyond just shipping a deliverable, but also packaging, the change management that goes along with it very necessary, very important. So exciting to see that that's something you're adding on to what you offer your clients. Very cool.
Juliana Stancampiano
Yeah, you know, I think the learning space has been around for so long. And there's so many different ways you can look at it. And I think that we're lucky today because the recognition of how important it is, is kind of landing a lot more with the people that have budget and think about where to invest. And so having that component to bring people along, you know, into whatever the learning is, I think is critical to actually landing. And that's been seen more and more, more and more, which I'm excited about.
Amy Petricek
I'm excited for you all. And I will be sure to include a link to oxygen in the show notes. So you can check them out if it's something you're interested in or just wanting to explore a little bit more. We're talking today about radical learning design, which I told you before we hit record, I was like, I'm not really sure what to name this episode, which the radical part I think will play itself out at some point. And you'll understand that I want to dive into this a little bit more. So talk to me a little bit about what makes a strong instructional designer. And since IDs are building learning experiences, I'd love to hear your perspective on what makes a strong candidate. And I think it's kind of we go through this conversation, learners will start to understand, oh, this is why it's called Radical learning design. So may not connect just yet, but bear with us. But Juliana, can you share a little bit about what makes a strong instructional designer,
Juliana Stancampiano
I think that the first thing that we always look for in a strong instructional designer, is a strong understanding of business and how it works, which might seem very odd for a lot of us that are in this space. But I find that if we can't understand how the world of work is working around the people that we're trying to help, then it's very difficult to help them be successful in the world of work. And I think it's missed a lot honestly, for those that people that come in through IDX programs or or other areas that are a little bit more traditional IDX ways because I think they think a lot about adult learning theory and you know, how we consume things and how we engage and the technology and the tools that's out there. But we don't really kind of back up and go, How does business work? And how are people successful in that business? And the best ideas that I have seen get very curious about what it is that these people that they're trying to create something for, what is their day to day look like? What are they being asked to do? How does that fit into the bigger picture for the company that they're working for? And then how do I figure out How to get that learning into their hands. So I think that core understanding of how business works and how it specifically works for the audience that you are trying to teach something to, is critical to having success as an ID. I think the other thing that I would say is, which I always also look for in an ideas, the ideas that aren't what we see all the time. So what are the what's the creativeness that you're going to bring to this content? You know, we've all seen content over and over and over again. And how do we bring it to life so that when somebody sees it, they're like, oh, oh, I get it, that now lands with me or resonates, you know, I was just ideated with Nike last week. And I was like, maybe we could take this content and make a Calvin and Hobbes best cartoon out of it. How fun, right? That is a fun to try to create and be way more interesting to consume, in my mind, you know, somebody that's consuming the learner learning, then a million other ways that you could put something down. I'm not interested in how beautiful you can make a drag and drop, write that online learning or how well you can outline a bunch of materials or, you know, the words in the slide that somebody is looking at. And so it's definitely about, let's think about the things that resonate with us in life that we enjoy consuming. And how can we bring those into the learning that we're creating
Amy Petricek
those two pieces, you've highlighted the business piece of, of learning, design, and also creativity, innovation, I feel like are also really important. And I think as I think about specifically, the business component a lot of designers have, I would say, it's more common to find one or the other skills, like they're really good at the design part, or they're really good at the business. But to be good at both, I find a little bit more rare. And also, if you do have both of the skill set, like you're a diamond in the rough, like, go get up what an exciting skill set. But then also, in terms of the design piece as well, I kept thinking, especially as designers, I can tell when something's like a rice course. And you're like, I know, this was a drag and drop, I know there was little innovation or little creativity put into this, which that's not always like a make or break in learning. But also it can add so much value and draw learners in more, get them more engaged, which that's really exciting. And ultimately, at the end of the day, we want to help create a behavior change, which requires engagement from the learner.
Juliana Stancampiano
Yeah, you know, it's interesting to me, and I know that behavior change is the word that's used in the academic field. And there's something about it that if I'm the audience, that I would really struggle, if you were like, I'm gonna, this is here to change your behavior, I would be like, I think I'm a pretty good person. And I think I've been doing pretty well so far. So why do I need to change my behavior? So I think I tried to think more about an evolution of a person, right, and we just need to, like, we need to evolve something forward, which we all hopefully, you're trying to do constantly, you know, it's, it is like, you know, back when some of these tools were created, we did very rudimentary things. And now, we can do things that are a lot more evolved. And so I hear you, and I think we have to push harder, and have higher expectations for the stuff that we're giving our employees and for what they're consuming, because I think there's probably so much money just getting wasted on really bad learning creation. And so I'd be more interested in, take all that money, and like shrink it down and do the, you know, do things that are really going to make a difference really well, versus trying to be everything to everybody, which I think is what happens and I think there are a lot of behaviors that I think drive that which is typically from the top and not understanding how change actually happens and then saying, hey, learning people go make it all change. And that's just not reality of how people are going to change an organization.
Amy Petricek
No, I really appreciate your pushback. And I, I would say that the behavior, behavior changing is like the very technical word that we use, but I think evolution is a much more I want to say humane way of describing it all. It feels far more natural.
Juliana Stancampiano
I think the one of the biggest barriers I've seen into especially instructional designers working with business stakeholders, it is the language barriers between how we speak or can speak. And people say the word pedagogy, and the people in the business don't know what we're talking about.
Amy Petricek
Or smile, nod your head, right? Yeah.
Juliana Stancampiano
And so you, you create this barrier that you don't want, because you have to partner together to create whatever the stuff is that you're trying to create for their people to be more successful. And so I think that when we approach it with a language that is human, and every day, and relatable, then they're able to relate to you. And then you are able to do the job that you need to do, right. It's kind of the old like, Covey had the whole Pace, pace, PACE lead thing where it was like, you meet people where they're at, which is exactly what we do from a learning perspective, and then you and then you take them to the place of choice. That's what he called it, you know, so that you can lead. But we can't go in and start dropping all the academia. And talking in ways that they don't know, nobody knows what an IoT is, or the IoT, and nobody knows what storyline is, or rise for that matter, right? They just don't know. It's not in their day to day, and that's totally okay. So how do you break it down, and meet them where they're at so that you can get them so that you can get what you need to create the thing that they need? Right? It's really that give and take
Amy Petricek
listeners? Are you starting to connect with this radical learning design pieces coming? Where maybe like using, or starting with words or phrases that are common to all of us, but then really taking them in new directions or evolving those phrases into further ideas and concepts? And so let's keep talking Giuliana. With that, are there any skill sets that you find that are commonly lacking in instructional designers?
Juliana Stancampiano
Yeah, that's, that's interesting. So writing has become a big thing for me. And I will tell you, you kind of asked and I would agree the business side, and then they're like creative side. And then I would also say, what I've found, some really amazing people are in teak people that started off as teachers, and have a teaching background because they understand how primarily kids operate and learn. And I think there's a lot of similarities with adults. And so, and they come from a really creative space, right, where things have to be more engaging, because kids are like, I'm out. And they don't hide themselves about it. They are just bored and singing to themselves, or like, you know, totally distracted. So I think that teachers bring this amazing point of view. And then I think writers, I find writers amazing. Because a lot of what we do is about those two things. It's about creativity and writing, which, you know, kind of comes together to engagement and retention. And we can layer in the things that we know about repetition and drip feeding, you know, information for people so that they aren't overwhelmed all at one time. So I think writers have really been on my, well, I've hired multiple writers. So if anybody was listening to this, they'll laugh and that we're both most of our ideas, were ex teachers or writers is what they all have in common.
Amy Petricek
She walks the talk.
Juliana Stancampiano
Well, yeah, otherwise, I get really frustrated, because sometimes you get things from people. And the writing is so bad. And it's it's not a judgment, it's just, we're not taught to be writers as IDs. It's not something that is part of the program. And so then, but once your turnout, and you have to do the writing, how do you know if your writing is good or not? You know, and as somebody that wrote a book, but wouldn't have called myself a writer, and there's an art and science to writing, you know, and there's a lot to be said, for that craft. And I think, you know, putting together different people with those different skill sets is really where things saying in my mind, right, but it because I think the other thing that ideas and that dealing with, which is just wildly unfair is, well, can't you just create that graphic for me? And can't you just write that thing for me? And can't you just program the tool to do the thing? And what about the animation? Do you think you could make that for me to it? It's like, you know, by the end, you're like, who am I and what am I doing? And it's not I just don't think that's fair. So I think having a little bit of everybody that's really amazing at their thing creates really amazing learning.
Amy Petricek
That's one of the reasons I love working on a team of designers as well is each person can have their different skill set, bring it to the table, and you can create some really cool stuff as a team, because you're leaning on everyone's strengths instead of expecting One person to have all of those strengths capabilities.
Juliana Stancampiano
I totally agree I had visual that I created at one time to be like, here's the old way of learning design. It was like a project manager and an IV. It was like, here's the new way of learning design. And it was all these people with specialties, you know, and then one person that kind of oversees the whole overarching like flow of the learning that's been done. I love it. And right now, I love a team. I love people that are good at their thing.
Amy Petricek
Yeah, for sure. So how can a designer take a learning experience from good to great?
Juliana Stancampiano
Oh, man? Well, it depends. I mean, from good to great. I think great is, I think it seems, I think, what I would say is, I would look back at a learning design that was good, and then great is it was unexpected, it had variety. And it kept you wanting to know what was gonna happen next. And I think those are kind of like the three design principles I think about when I look through a learning, like, was I curious of what was going to come next? Or did I not care? And so I don't know what those things could be. But I think it is, you know, I think so Andrew Huberman, I'm a huge fan of his podcasts, he remin labs. He is a researcher down at Stanford. Lots about how we learned in his podcast, and I think it's super helpful for ideas to know and to understand, he said, neuroscientists, talks about how everything works, we don't learn overnight. Not surprising, but sometimes helps to have somebody with a PhD to reference to talk about this in business. But variety talks about variety, as humans, we want variety. And we get the same thing over and over again. And we kind of switch off. So we talk a lot about creative variety in our learning. And what that looks like,
Amy Petricek
with the way our conversations got gone thus far, is just talking about like, these are maybe the stereotypical ways concepts, ideas, vocabulary, that are talked about in the instructional design world. But what if we evolved those What if we maybe flipped them in a different direction and looked at them from another lens? Hence, again, radical learning design, but just I'm loving the freshness of perspective and thought and dialogue that you're bringing to these conversations. So thank you. This has been fun so far.
Juliana Stancampiano
Thank you. I think it's fun to talk about, because I think it's underrated. And when you ask most people about their corporate learning, you don't get an overly positive response. And I don't think it has to be that way.
Amy Petricek
So what advice would you give? Or What recommendations would you give a designer who is wanting to create more engaging and appealing designs,
Juliana Stancampiano
I think that I would encourage them to just think about what they're engaged with on a day to day basis, and what makes them excited to learn more. I like in a lot of the things that we do, too. Sometimes we talk about like Fidelity of things. And with some audiences, fidelity doesn't matter that much. As long as you, they get the thing that they need. So when I'm at home, like trying to figure out how to scale my Nespresso machine or something, I'm like, I don't remember how to do it. And I don't care if the person that on YouTube that filmed it is world class, by any stretch, I just need to know the steps. You know, so we really have to, you know, think about our audience and what their needs are, and meet them there. And don't overthink it either. Right? I think there's a lot of overthinking happening that on, then they're gonna take this and then they're gonna do this. It's like, and everybody's got a job. So you know, how do we just really get to the essence of what it is that we're trying to get across, and give it to them in a way that is relevant. And you know, and you see it within your own world. So if we talked about like learning and the flow of work, and all these great things that Josh person's done all this research about? What that means to me is, I don't know if I'm learning or if I'm actually just like consuming materials during my day that I'm interested in.
Amy Petricek
I love that thought.
Juliana Stancampiano
That would be my like, ideal spot that somebody is just getting stuff. And they're like, oh, no, my company just like, I have this place where I can go, I can grab the thing. And I've got what I need that I can keep going.
Amy Petricek
We're gonna go to the Rapid Round here in a second. But I have a question. You referenced a book you wrote earlier. Tell us about your book. And yeah, give us a little taste of that.
Juliana Stancampiano
I did. Yeah. It is called Radical outcomes. It's literally about teaming together for learning purposes. To your point earlier, it's bring In all the brilliant minds together to create outcomes for businesses, you know, I'm big into understanding why we're doing the learning and what it's going to produce. Because ultimately, to get the funding that you need to be able to do it in a way that's going to be impactful, somebody up the chain is going to want to know what outcome we're driving. And I think individually, your audience wants to understand the outcomes they're getting if they're going to be going through it. So it's all about that a process that we've been driving the oxygen for a number of years and working to make it work
Amy Petricek
very cool. Well, I will be sure to also put a link to radical outcomes in the shownotes. So you all can check that out as well. But let's go ahead and hit up this Rapid Round. These are the questions I get to ask all of my guests. The first one you'll finish the sentence learning is crucial when you're mustering up the courage to learn something new. What song do you put on? Oh,
Juliana Stancampiano
man, probably anything by Alicia Keys. Oh, I like I find her inspiring. And her writing is amazing.
Amy Petricek
She She in the last well, maybe since the pandemic or so put out a book set, right? Yes, she did. You're asked to do a brand new task with a skill set you do not yet have Where do you turn?
Juliana Stancampiano
People and online? Both I am one of those people that goes and ask like 20 people something to try to figure something out. So definitely my network and probably definitely online. Maybe a book, or very smart people that I know.
Amy Petricek
I was gonna say you all can't see but in the background, she has this like pillar of books behind her. So I was waiting for her to say a book. So I'm glad that finally came out. My heart is at peace now.
Juliana Stancampiano
Well, what's interesting about that is that I have I am not a fast reader. So I have to ask people for the book that I need. Do you know what I mean? Because yeah, otherwise, I would never get there.
Amy Petricek
Last one, without learning finish the sentence. Oh, we die.
Juliana Stancampiano
So sad. It's really sad. Right?
Amy Petricek
And maybe you should move that question further up.
Juliana Stancampiano
First, and then the other one should be last. There we go. I just you know, there's no innovation that just seems really sad to me would be stuck in pandemic loops or something.
Amy Petricek
Don't go there. Too soon. So what's the best way for my listeners to be in contact with you after the show? And is there anything that you're working on that you'd like to share about?
Juliana Stancampiano
Yes, so Jstancampiano on LinkedIn and Twitter both. And I have also just launched a podcast that I'm really excited about. And yes, I think the third episode is just coming out so that you can find it on the web website auction exp.com. I'm speaking to mostly women in business that have had really amazing careers and about their stories and because I think we need to hear them more.
Amy Petricek
Very cool. I will for sure, put a link to it. You're just giving me like a laundry list of things to add to the show notes. But you all these sound like some great resources ketchup. Well, thank you so much Giuliana for sharing all about radical learning design with us today. Be sure to check out her book radical outcomes. I also want to give a shout out to you my listeners for learning with us. Until next time, stay open, receptive and kind.