S1 E25 Learning Engineering
Episode Audio
Kristin Torrence shares what she’s been learning about Learning Engineering.
Connect with Kristin on LinkedIn.
Transcript:
The following transcript was auto-generated and may contain typos or spelling errors.
Amy Petricek
Welcome to the share with you learn Podcast. I'm Amy Petricek alerting enthusiast and the host of the show. The share which you learn podcast is designed for learning professionals to share something they're learning in the field of instructional design. Today I'm talking to Kristen Torrance about learning engineering. Hi, Kristen, welcome to the show. Would you take a minute to introduce yourself to my listeners, please?
Kristin Torrence
Hi, Amy. Thanks so much for having me. Sure. I have a background in cognitive science and game based learning and also instructional design. And I currently serve as the head of learning engineering at tailspin, which is a company that creates transformative XR solutions. And I'm also the co founder of xr and Alex D, which is a community of practice for instructional designers, and learning experience designers interested in designing immersive learning to come together and kind of,
Amy Petricek
say the name of that community practice again,
Kristin Torrence
XR in LXD
Amy Petricek
and Alex De and I am very much on the outskirts of that. But I'm a part of the slack channel, I have seen some of the brainstorming and collaboration and all of the ideas sharing that's going on there and seems like a really cool community. So highly recommend that if you're at all interested in immersive learning for sure. Yeah, please join. Today. Kristen, we're going to talk about learning engineering. And you have you kind of alluded to a really extensive background. So I'm excited to hear like how your background plays into what it is you know about learning engineering, but I'm going to start off with like, what is learning engineering? And why is it important for learning designers to understand this? Yeah, so
Kristin Torrence
learning engineering is both a process and a practice that applies Learning Sciences and Human Centered and engineering design methodologies, as well as data informed decision making to support learners by both creating and iteratively improving upon learning experiences. So it draws from areas of cognitive science and educational psychology, UI, UX, learning, experience design, instructional design, systems engineering, data science and psychometrics. Among other disciplines. It's, it's really cross disciplinary.
Amy Petricek
I was gonna say multifaceted, but cross disciplinary is a good word to that draws in a little bit of everything. And Is my understanding correct or fair to say, Miss the initial part? But did you say it's a methodology?
Kristin Torrence
Yeah, so it's both a, it could be a role a single person role, or it could be a collaborative role that a team takes on. And so the way that it is technically defined is it's both a process and a practice.
Amy Petricek
So maybe kind of like something to compare it to could be like a project manager, like someone who manages a project, but also is managing the project workflow as well.
Kristin Torrence
Yeah, that's a great analogy or the comparison.
Amy Petricek
Yes, this does sound incredibly relevant to learning design. Like let's keep digging in and talking more. So how does learning engineering differ from how we traditionally think about instructional design? Oh, yeah, that's
Kristin Torrence
a really great question. So, you know, similar to traditional instructional design, learning engineering is very much concerned with designing and implementing sound instructional design or learning solutions. I would probably characterize learning engineering as like evidence based instructional design, and then some are like on steroids. Right? Because there's, there's this research component to learning engineering that isn't as prominent in traditional instructional design. So many of the core principles and practices of learning engineering include things like modeling and instrumenting data collection, analysis, and the really the insights that are drawn from these analyses are what drive design decisions and subsequent iterations. And, you know, again, to add to that, sort of similar to academia, also, it's another differentiator, sharing those types of findings with the broader community or like sharing other learnings with the broader community is really a core practice of learning engineering, which really helps propel the discipline forward.
Kristin Torrence
Absolutely, so you know, if you think about a learning solution that you may create, right, this could be a level of just take a take like an elearning in elearning often not isolated, right, it sits within maybe a course, which sits probably within a greater program or curriculum and learning engineer might take a look at and analyze the entire intervention at all those different levels. So at the programmatic level, or, you know, a modular level, let's say that that, that elearning sits within a single module within you know, a unit. And so it's really like identifying what are the success factors in that make some, like any sort of learning more successful, so like, really, it's really about investigating and finding out what works, and what doesn't work. And through this investigation, learning more about our learners, learning more about the delivery mechanisms and strategies and things, instructional strategies that are working, right, so we're often when we're creating learning, we're usually making some assumptions, mostly based off of or hopefully be like research base assumptions, right, that we think are working. And it's always good to test this to ensure that we know that the solutions we're delivering are highly effective, and pinpointing areas where they're not because because maybe there's a way we can improve that. And data will really tell that story. And so, so it's really about the the research questions that we want to ask about the learning design are about the implementation or about the various factors that create a successful intervention, right. So those could be contextual factors that could be motivating factors, there are lots of different things that we can investigate as learning designers to figure out how our learners learn best, what factors create the, you know, the most optimal in learning environments, and really create I'm going to say, like many studies or like pilots to figure out really what's working and what's not. And learn from that. So we can carry those learnings to our future designs and our future iterations
Amy Petricek
think I heard you say earlier the word investigative and that at least from what I'm learning thus far from you about learning, engineering feels like a really core component to all of this. And then I've heard you say, like analysis and data, whereas instructional design tends to be more around actually designing like the focus around organizing the content and visually displaying it in a way that makes sense. But this is really taking, I don't know, if it's a step back or a step sideways, a step in some direction, to look even more holistically than just one isolated course it sounds like and looking at the broader umbrella of modalities, offerings, as well as maybe a particular course, but that word investigators just really like helped me to kind of latch on to this concept and understand it better. So thank you for continuing to, like flush this out for a newbie learner here and help me understand as well.
Kristin Torrence
Yeah, of course. And, you know, I might even add to that, that it definitely does look at any sort of learning and intervention holistically, sort of at the systemic level. And just sort of in terms of I wouldn't say sidestep, I might say introspection, because you had mentioned that, you know, a lot of instructional design deals with, you know, how we organize things, how we, how we plan scaffolds, and things like that. And I would say that learning engineering absolutely is that, but then checks us to make sure that we're validating that that scaffold actually works. We're validating that that learning design and or that visual presentation is in fact contributing to the overall success of the learning solution.
Amy Petricek
Thank you for elaborating and expanding and introspecting No, of course. So I'm so curious what got you into learning more about this topic and kind of diving into learning engineering?
Kristin Torrence
Well, I've always been really interested in learning analytics. And I feel like it might just have been something I stumbled upon through reading the literature about analytics and measurement. And I think just sort of through my discovery, I stumbled upon the IEEE icicle page, an icicle stands for industry consortium on learning engineering. So I stumbled upon their website and I saw that they had a really great sort of diagram and process and infographic around what really what learning engineering was. And I felt like the more I read about it, the more it sort of just resonated with me. And I realized that learning engineering actually sat at the intersection, really, of all things that I felt defined my practice as a learning experience designers, so learning science measurement, instructional design, data science, so it really they resonated with me. And really from there I joined, I joined them the group, a monthly a monthly meeting. And then I also eventually joined a number of special interest groups that they have the design SIG in the in the tool six. So it just really tried to be as involved as I could in this evolving discipline.
Amy Petricek
It sounds like you went down one little path, and then it expanded you to this whole new world of people and opportunities and experiences, which is super cool. Absolutely. So if someone is maybe considering like, after learning about this, as well, I maybe this is something I could be interested in professionally, what would you say makes a good learning engineer who
Kristin Torrence
so we sort of touched on this earlier, but I would say anyone who is curious and is motivated to learn and learn about and also investigate learners, their characteristics, and other success factors that make learning solutions, learning environments, implementations, or even learning ecosystems most effective. So I feel like folks who are interested in in those types of things will really enjoy this type of work. And I also think just more generally, the most critical skill in a learning engineering role is the ability to collaborate with others. Because as we mentioned before, learning engineering is often executed by a multidisciplinary team. And so it's really essential for learning engineers to be effective collaborators,
Amy Petricek
my brain was thinking about the instructional design framework Addie, and was like, Oh, I bet if there's instructional designers out there that really enjoyed the a of analysis in the E evaluate, this might be a fun path for them to pursue.
Kristin Torrence
That was me.
Amy Petricek
One of the things you've talked a lot about with learning engineers is a I've heard you say data analysis, those kinds of words, what are some examples or types of data that a learning engineer might look at? To help them understand analyze, investigate?
Kristin Torrence
I would say, it really depends on the research questions that the learning engineers investigating, right? Like what what types of things do they want to know or are questioning or want to validate? I'd argue that data about a learner or learning activities, or about the learning design, or generally, the learning environment, and implementation could all be areas of focus for data collection, because you can imagine that there's a large spectrum of potential data learning engineers might be interested in, right. So from even the most granular behaviors or competencies demonstrated in a single learning activity to really the larger broader programmatic level, and the affordances that really make up a learning environment could all contribute in some way to this and be worth investigating, if that's what you're interested in learning more about or learning validating your assumptions, I guess. Yeah. So that might be a cop out answer. I'm sorry. But again, it depends on the research questions.
Amy Petricek
We're speaking very generically. So it's hard to sometimes answer those very generic questions my brain was going towards, like LMS data like is that a relevant metric that a learning engineer is looking at is, and there's a variety of kinds of data that an LMS can pull, my brain is kind of thinking like, is it more the LMS data? Or are we looking in potentially, could you even be looking outside the LMS? Like, if the employees are leveraging, let's say, a software like Salesforce? That's one of the software's that a lot of companies leverage in their lines of business? Would it be something that maybe you're even pulling data and analytics from an outside company or resource like that, and it's not strictly confined to the LMS?
Kristin Torrence
Absolutely. Right. It could it could definitely be a mixture could be something that might already sit in your LMS. And you know, you might have maybe there's a an optional pathway learning pathway that you want it you offer to all of your employees, and you wanted to see, you know, whether participation in that optional pathway was leading to effective results in some way or another, that could be an investigation worth having. And that would be an investigation where that the LMS would yield that type of data.
Amy Petricek
If someone is wanting to learn more about learning engineering, is there any place you point them or resource you'd advise them to check out I would
Kristin Torrence
suggest checking out the IEEE icicle website. And from there, you can sign up for the newsletter, which also has links to you know how you can join the monthly meeting, as well as many other special interest groups and that that particular group, that icicle they are also putting on a conference this summer in. It's in July 26th through 28th. And it's takes place on the MIT campus. And it's I think it only be the second annual conference of its type. So it's going to be really exciting and it is and it's in junction with one of the the book chat or the book releases,
Amy Petricek
I will be sure to include both the link to that website and then also to the conference in the show notes because this is coming out in May and so plenty of time to still register and get on board. I'm ready Christian to transition to the Rapid Round. Are you ready?
Kristin Torrence
Ooh, yeah, let's do it.
Amy Petricek
All right. The first one is you're going to finish the sentence for me learning is play. I wish you could see her face she had like eat your your hands and her face. She was
Kristin Torrence
randomly feud. And
Amy Petricek
when you're mustering up the courage to learn something new, What song do you put on?
Kristin Torrence
Oh, you know, I wish I had some sort of like Girl Power anthem. But honestly, I put on brain FM because I have trouble listening to music. And at the same time,
Amy Petricek
there are many people who have come on this podcast and said the same thing. You're asked to do a brand new task with a skill set you do not yet have Where do you turn Google Hands down? Last one without learning finish the sentence
Kristin Torrence
we'd be uninspired.
Amy Petricek
Thanks for playing the Rapid Round with me, Kristen. If someone is enjoying this conversation and are wanting to learn more maybe from you about learning engineering, what would be a good way for them to be in contact with you after the show? You can
Kristin Torrence
find me on LinkedIn and Twitter. My Twitter handle is Chris Torrance, Alex D. And I have more recently now on Tik Tok.
Amy Petricek
I have seen a couple of your tiktoks come through over LinkedIn and I've been very excited about the the journey you've been on I'm not on tick tock but I have had the pleasure of just enjoying via LinkedIn so definitely worth following even though I don't have tick tock I recommend
Kristin Torrence
things. It's so fun, and I didn't think I would like it but I in the first week that I used it I fell in love with it.
Amy Petricek
Thanks so much Kristin for sharing all about learning engineering with us today. I also want to give a shout out to you my listeners for learning with us. Until next time, stay open and receptive and kind.