S1 E6 Empathy in Learning

Episode Audio

Jason Meucci is a facilitator who shares about the role of empathy in learning.

Connect with Jason on LinkedIn.

Transcript:

The following transcript was auto-generated and may contain typos or spelling errors.

Amy Petricek

Welcome to the share what you learned podcast. I'm Amy Petricek, learning and enthusiast and the host of the show, to share what you learned podcast is designed for learning professionals to share something they're learning in the field of instructional design. Today, I'm talking to Jason Meucci, who's going to share what he's been learning about empathy in the learning and development space. Jason, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you here.

Jason Meucci

Well, thank you, Amy. This is really, really a treat for me, because I've been such an admirer of you and your work and your growth and your exploration of this field for a long time now, and so to be invited on to your show, it's just it's just really wonderful.

Amy Petricek

Well, today's discussion is all about empathy. And when I was thinking about empathy, Jason was, of course, the person who came to mind top of the list. So I'm equally as excited to have you here chatting with you. I know you really well, Jason, but my listeners probably don't. Can you give them a little intro on who you are and what you're all about?

Jason Meucci

Yeah, so well, you mentioned my name, I'm Jason Meucci. I live here in Seattle. And after spending most of my life as a, as a TV producer, and the people leader in the news business and in the employee communication fields, I am currently pursuing my purpose to create a better world by building a better world of work. And I'm really excited and grateful to be doing that through a number of different avenues. I'm a corporate trainer, I'm a team building facilitator, I'm an emerging leader coach, and I'm a teaching assistant at Gonzaga University's Graduate School of Leadership Studies.

Amy Petricek

He does it all. That's what he that's what in summation, he does it all. And I feel like we would be remiss if we didn't bring into play, Jason has these three C's that he's all about. And I feel like if they don't showcase In this episode, I've done a disservice to him.

Jason Meucci

Well, thank you. I was gonna mention that a little bit later. But um, this will give it a sneak peek. And yes, my three C's I call it my my leadership Prelude model, for lack of a better word, and its care connection and contribution. And not surprisingly, and appropriate to today's conversation. Empathy is a huge part of that care piece.

Amy Petricek

Agreed, that's if you've if you interact with Jason in any way that those three C's will come about, and the empathy will shine. So as I kind of alluded to earlier, I see you as kind of like an empathy guru, you are one of the most thoughtful kind, people and facilitators that I've met. And I'd love to hear a little bit about how you came to that place. And what drew you to this work?

Jason Meucci

Well, I can't do this podcast, and if you're gonna give me all choked up, that's way too kind. And I wouldn't consider myself a guru of anything. But I certainly appreciate the generosity of your question. But I do I do try to be intentional about prioritizing empathy in the work I do. And, and certainly in the person I'm striving to be, you know, I will humbly say, you know, what, I can say that I've worked really hard at it. And I've done all these trainings and everything. But I think I'm humbled to say a lot of that comes sort of naturally to me, I don't have a lot of natural gifts, but, but one of them I do think, is empathy. And I say that because whenever I do these, one of these, you know, these personality or strength assessments that we all love to do in the learning and development field, and I think I've done just about all of them, you know, the areas where I consistently tend to score pretty high, I'll point back to or explicitly call out empathy in some way. And so, you know, but with any strength, overuse, overuse of it can turn into a weakness. And so that's something I'm always trying to be more aware of it and work on it. But as far as what drew me to this particular line of work, you know, like you, I am a perpetual learner. And if I'm not constantly learning or trying to grow and develop, I start to get anxious and restless pretty quickly. And so, being in the Elon Elan and l&d is sort of a natural habitat, I think for those of us who love to consume and share knowledge and experience, especially if we can do it for the sake of the betterment of others. And so, in my coaching with emerging leaders, I like to talk about the difference between what our jobs are, and when we consider our work with a capital W. thought, you know, I had all these really great and fantastically rewarding TV and communications jobs for most of my life. But I came to realize that you know, what I love the most and how I achieved success and found the most fulfillment in those jobs really came as a byproduct of doing what I now consider to be my work again, with a capital W. And that is growing and developing others. And so now, I think I have finally figured out a way, by doing all those things I just mentioned, I am making that work my job.

Amy Petricek

Can you differentiate a little bit more, you just you've said work with a capital W and Can you maybe break that down a little bit to help my listeners understand what you're trying to communicate in that?

Jason Meucci

Sure. I think, you know, I think maybe the easiest way to try to understand it is Sort of alignment with purpose, you know why we're doing what we do and what what we consider sort of our life's calling. And that's what I consider our work. You know, I'm maybe a leadership coach and a corporate trainer. But my work why I'm doing that is because I want to make the world a better place. And I think we can, one of the ways to do that is by giving people a better workplace experience so that they can go out into the world feeling better and not broken by work. And so that's what I consider my work if that's really my purpose, my why, like the bigger picture about what I'm doing and why I'm doing it.

Amy Petricek

I love that. And I appreciate that. And of course, like that just perfectly marries into the idea of empathy as well. So kind of like piggybacking off of that, can you tell us a little bit about the role of empathy and employee development?

Jason Meucci

Yeah, um, you know, I mentioned that as part of that care piece. And I think we have to care about people to develop them. And certainly, it's a fuel for the connection piece in my work, because empathy is the fuel for connection. But for me, empathy is such an undervalued piece of employee development, because for development to be the most effective, I think, we really need to take individual needs and interest into account. Too often, we create these very well intentioned and not in often, you know, and usually pretty effective development plans, but they can be fairly prescriptive and really more about what the organization needs than what the employee wants. And and of course, developing people in a way that betters organizational outcomes is absolutely important. It's why we have l&d departments in the first place. I just personally believe that employee development should be a little more focused on the employee part of that equation. So you know, if we really want to unlock the best in people and motivate them and improve, not just their performance, but you know, retention and their their overall personal well being we have to show people, again, that we care about them enough to also help them grow and develop in the ways that they want to grow. Even if that's an area outside of the normal scope of work. The Of course, the ideal, sweet spot is where, you know, we can find ways to give people development opportunities or stretch assignments that both serve team needs, but are also in alignment with their personal goals and what they're seeking. So to bring it back to your to your question, you think empathy, it takes empathy to know and understand the the unique development wants and interests of each individual, and then sort of knowing where they're at. And if the only development that people are getting is have little or no interest to them, it's only because you know, the boss told them to do it, it's eventually just going to burn them out and drain them and being empathetic to what what they want to learn and how they want to learn it. You can make them feel really uniquely valued and invested in which is incredibly motivating. And ultimately, it brings better outcomes because the development work is more personalized to the individual.

Amy Petricek

I think the resounding Gong I've hearing thus far is intentionality, that intentionality behind anything we do in the l&d space is going to better serve people and show people that we care and we're invested in them and we were invested in their growth and development.

Jason Meucci

Well, you just gave me the warm and fuzzies by picking up on that because I use that word, probably almost too much and the work that I do. As far as as far as intentionality like it's all about intentions, I think this stuff takes more intention than it does investment. There's certainly some costs involved with learning and development, I think, what really makes it successful or not as his intention. So I'm glad that you picked up on that.

Amy Petricek

He made it easy to pick up kept hearing it resounding Gong I loved it. So when I'm thinking of instructional designers, or people in the learning and development profession, who may be this idea of empathy, as they're approaching, maybe building a learning experience, or looking at facilitating a training, maybe this is new to them, and so they're not really sure where to start? Do you have maybe like one or two tangible ways that we as l&d professionals, could begin to incorporate more empathy into our trainings? Well, I

Jason Meucci

think the first thing that comes to mind for me is is sort of that design thinking approach where you really try to immerse yourself or Matt, even imagine yourself from the learners perspective and think about not just what would be the best content for them and their needs, but also the best way for them to consume experience and learn the content. So that's, that's the place to start is to really think about the learner the participant first and work back from that. I think probably the biggest one, though, is is something that I'm still really trying to work hard to get better at. And it's such a long way to go. And that is sort of active or even empathetic listening, but that I mean, paying attention to body language, which is a course hard to do on zoom. We'll get to that in a moment, I think, but it's listening to not just what's what's being said on the surface, but really the meaning of what's being said and just as importantly, what's not being said. And if we want to be empathetic as facilitators, we can't go into a class, or an experience with this mindset that we know it all. And we're only there to teach what we came to teach and how we came there to teach it, we have to listen for the emerging themes that might be, you know, coming out that are different than what we went in there anticipating and being flexible enough in our delivery, to have different conversations and encouraged contrasts and ideas and feelings to be shared there. There's an old adage about meeting people where they are. And to do that you have to care enough again, there's that word, to ask the questions, to have the human conversations that help you understand where that is, you know, what someone is most interested in taking away from that learning experience, or what their needs are, as it pertains to their real time real world real world challenges. You know, so, so one of the most effective ways I have found is personally to do that, to help me meet people where they are, is through surveys and reflections. So before an event, I will send out something that helps gather some data on who will be in the room, and you know, where they're coming from, what they're seeking, what they're expecting, what they typically like and don't like about the type of experience or content that I'll be delivering, that really, really helps me sort of have a better sense of, Okay, what I need to show up with, as opposed to just creating my own thing and showing up as I Here it is. And then during the session, I like to carve out strategic spots for two to three minute reflections that, you know, simultaneously allow participants to sort of pause, take a breath, connect some dots, let the content seek in, but also it gives me a real time opportunity to assess where people are, like, what they're sort of resonating with, what they're still confused by, it's they're really doing these reflections during, you know, two or three times during a session I think helps us as facilitators really stay in alignment with what the audience is, is is taking away but what they're also still needing.

Amy Petricek

Those are so practical, I love that. I think sometimes when we talk about, you know, what are some practical steps, people give these kind of like, still what feels like more elusive things, but your direct like idea of get a survey, like such a practical, tangible thing, we can all do that. And that time for reflection and feedback as well. Like, those are all super tangible things. We can all apply tomorrow, even into our training. So super valuable.

Jason Meucci

And it makes the participants feel like they matter. You know, and that's one of the crux of my, my personal work is to make sure that, you know, everybody feels like who they are and what they do matters. And I think by showing that curiosity, you're showing that you are willing to cater your event to their needs. By asking these questions. I think that just goes a long way as sort of getting buy in and investment because it doesn't feel prescriptive, if you like, this is designed for me, sort of bespoke. So you

Amy Petricek

reference this, you were talking about zoom and how there's a difference between or potentially a difference between empathy in a face to face experience versus a virtual platform like zoom? Can you say more about that?

Jason Meucci

Yeah, no, empathy is empathy, of course, but you know, how it's given and experienced. And what it requires to do so is obviously more challenging and takes here's that word, again, intention in a virtual setting, where it's harder to get a read on people's body language. I do know a lot of us facilitators, we encourage people to keep their video on, on zoom, or whatever the platform is, because it does create a more engaging experience in general. But also it gives us as facilitators, at least a way to sort of read facial expressions to try to get a sense of where people are on. And so all that stuff I just mentioned about listening and reflections really helps when you're doing a virtual facilitation, because those things can really serve as your internal sort of dashboard for reading for reading the virtual room. On a more operational level, I think if you're on a virtual platform, it always helps to be empathetic, even in the technology that you're using. And think about thinking about how accessible it is or how familiar your audience may or may not be with it and sort of making sure that they are comfortable with it, before you start the actual learning part. The last thing I'll say about this is you know, we have to show up with with a module or a roadmap for the content that we're there to deliver on the outcomes we're seeking. But with with that empathetic, attentive ear and a curious mind and an open heart that will help you better serve your audience's real needs, whether you are in person, or virtual and sometimes giving them what they need is really just giving them a place in space to feel heard.

Amy Petricek

I think of in terms of for me, personally, in terms of face to face versus zoom, when I'm facilitating in a room face to face with people. I can I mean, you can read their body language, you can see facial expressions, you can see if they're taking notes or texting, like those kinds of things become pretty evident. And for me, too, they feel like there's kind of like an energetic thing that happens in the room that you can feel incense. And for me personally, it feels so different on zoom it some of that can still be created or mimicked mirrored. But it's very different and you're you're very reliant upon the people who are in your session turning on their cameras, at least for me, that's, that's a key factor.

Jason Meucci

Yeah, yeah, the camera thing is definitely huge. So you can you can read the facial expressions. And, again, listening, you know, which is easier to do, because, you know, when you can see the faces as well, you're listening really helps if you can, if you're good at listening for what's being said, and what's not being said and the emotion and the meaning behind it. That also helps. You'll never be you know, it's always gonna be harder on virtual that in person. But, but it but it can be done. That's the good news.

Amy Petricek

Yes, it can. It's it's more of that intentionality that you spoke of. You can't do it haphazardly. You have to think about it and and actively work towards it. Absolutely. So someone else is wanting to learn more about empathy and employee development? Who are some of the thought leaders that you recommend they follow? And or maybe books to read? Where would you send them?

Jason Meucci

Yeah, well, I have a list of course, because, you know, like, like I mentioned earlier, I know you and I are both sort of learning addicts. And so we are all constantly sort of taking in, you know, sources of information. And it's all list, I think, a few. I'm a huge, huge podcast person. And so I'll certainly start with some some of those and then maybe a book or two, but one who that I have sort of discovered fairly recently is this guy named Andy storage, and he hosts the talent development, Hot Seat podcast. And, you know, consistently, there's this really great focus on the human skills that I think are so necessary to really inspire and empower the best in people and as they're being developed. So that's a great, great Listen, and he has his own newsletter and all these things you can sign up for his great content, Andy storage, talent development, hotseat. There's a woman out of Australia named Leanne Hughes. And she hosts the first time facilitator podcast, and she also has an online community on Facebook. And of course, you know, by definition, you can probably guess from the name, she talks about all things facilitation, but underneath it all, is this, you know, sort of underlying theme of empathy for your learner's for your participants and knowing what your audience's needs are and creating experiences to help sort of serve those. So I think that's a really great one. Also in Australia, interesting that I mentioned the listening base, because I don't know that there's anything that's more of a lynchpin for empathy than than real listening. And there's a guy out of Australia, his name is Oscar trimboli, tr, I am Bo Li, and he has a deep listening podcast and, and he also has a newsletter, and a website and all these things that are really, really great for helping you be a better listener, he even has a great set of playing cards that you can use sort of practice your active listening skills. So that's a really great one. Because you know, the more or the better listeners we can be, the more empathetic we can be. I know we're not on video, per se. But there's a book that I just finished by a woman named Erica Cashman. What's her name? Yeah. And she, She's the author of a book called bring your human to work. And the one that you just put out most recently that I just finished is called rituals roadmap. And in that book, she touches on humanizing every aspect of the employee lifecycle. And it includes an entire chapter on personalized development opportunities, that are really specific to what the employee wants, not just what the company needs, and some real great case studies on organizations, they, that you would recognize for sure, that do this really, really well. Um, and so those are those are, those are the ones I would start I would also give you a shout out, Amy, because I think you are showing empathy in your podcast just because you like to keep these really short. And as I a an avid podcast consumer, I get frustrated, because there's so many I want to listen to, but they often go 45 minutes, 60 minutes, 75 minutes. And I know that's the point of a podcast, and you can go as long as you want. But I like the fact that you keep it brief. I think that this is really empathetic to your audience.

Amy Petricek

Thank you that it was intentional. Yeah, well, if you're like me, listeners, and you are just gobbling up all of those resources that he's said and are afraid maybe you forgot any Have no fear, I will put them in the show notes so you can find your way through and check all of those things out.

Amy Petricek

Such a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing all the things. I'd love to transition over to the rapid round now. Jason, are you ready? Let's do it. Let's do it rapidly. All right. Learning is

Jason Meucci

the pathway to becoming a better version of ourselves. So we that so that we can then be better for others.

Amy Petricek

Yes, end of sentence period. We don't need anything else. When you're mustering up the courage to learn something new, What song do you put on?

Jason Meucci

Well, I, I don't want to age myself, but I am a child of the 80s. And so I grew up with a band called YouTube, a little band out of Ireland. And all these decades later, an anthem that still gets me going when I need to summon that little something extra, is a song called where the streets have no name. And sonically and lyrically, it conveys this sense of bigger possibilities. And that's what learning really does. For us. That's what it's all about learning expands our own possibilities.

Amy Petricek

Yes, I'm loving this, you're asked to do a brand new task with a skill set you do not yet have where do you turn?

Jason Meucci

Alright, Amy, um, there's this really great sort of secret hack that I've discovered fairly recently that I kept mostly to myself, but because I am a super fan of yours, I will fail you and your listeners and on this thing. It's called Google GOGL. Google it. And if I am starting from scratch or close to it, I will at least start by doing enough research to enable me to ask some semi informed questions of somebody who actually knows what they're talking about. So googling it is the easy part. The hard part is what comes next. And that is actually asking for help. And I have been on a bit of a crusade about this over the last few months, because I am really bad at it. Um, but I wanted a submission, I think, to normalize asking for help. It's just so critical. And you may have seen me post or heard me talk about all the life lessons that are in this fable, called the boy the mole, the Fox and the horse and one of the big ones or one of my favorite ones. And that book is this sort of idea that asking for help is actually an act of bravery. And it's a sign not that you're giving up, but it's a sign that you're refusing to give up. So my thing is asking for if you get to the contribution, peace of mind model I talked about, you know, asking for help give someone else a chance to be a hero, everyone loves to be a hero. So when we need to learn something new, when I need to learn something new, I say make someone a hero, ask for help.

Amy Petricek

I love both of those. I resonate with all of it. I think one of the things we overlook is the power of Google. Really, I say sometimes that I think what makes a great learning and development professional is their ability to Google like this, the words they use and the websites they're looking at. But then also, when you aren't able to find what you need, then going to the next step of asking someone without learning.

Jason Meucci

without learning, I think we're just standing still in our lives and in our work. We're not just standing still, we're going backwards. Because the world around us is always moving forward. It's always evolving. And so without learning, we are doing a disservice to ourselves, and we're doing a disservice to those who are in our sphere of care.

Amy Petricek

So Jason, what, first of all, I've loved our conversation today. And I'm so grateful that all of my listeners and people out in the in the world here get to experience the goodness of you and hear some of about you and all of the that you encompass and that you bring to the l&d space. If someone is just jiving with all that you're saying, what would be the best way for them to get in contact with you after the show? And so is there anything you're working on right now that you'd love to give a shout out for?

Jason Meucci

Oh, well, to the first part, I will say you know, my website is working progress as they say is I think the best way to find me is probably on LinkedIn I love to connect with with listeners and or I'm on Twitter at j Meucci, J meu, CCI find me either one of those places, I'd love to connect. And it's something I've been working on you, you know, you kind of gave it away. I'm really sort of excited about this leadership Prelude thing I've been working on and sort of beta testing with with various groups and teams to help you know leaders and teams infuse their leadership and their culture with those three C's you mentioned the care, connection and contribution. And so I've been doing and iterating on this sort of fun combination of coaching and virtual facilitation that gives people a fun bonding experience while leaving them with some tools ideas and there's that word one less time intentions that will help them show care build connection and empower contribution for everybody in their team in their day to day work and in I think this is importantly in their everyday way of being

Amy Petricek

he's doing great work everybody if you're not hearing that I'm shouting it he's doing great work.

Jason Meucci

Well, thank you. I was I say the same about you. I just been such a fan of watching your growth in your intentionality in your your work with a capital W. And so it's it's I'm really, really humbled to be here.

Amy Petricek

Thank you so much, Jason. And for coming on the show and for sharing all about empathy with us today. I also want to give a shout out to you, my listeners for learning with us. Until next time, stay open, receptive and kind